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Post by finarvyn on Mar 30, 2009 10:34:03 GMT -5
Jason -
Just curious if you will have an offer of a free or discounted cost for the PDF version of 2E for those of us who already bought the 1E PDF?
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Post by Jason Vey on Mar 30, 2009 11:13:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately I don't have the means to do that at Lulu. Since we're so embryonic, our resources are still limited on that front. I also don't have the means to track individual sales, so I don't know who did and didn't buy the 1e one (save for certain exceptions such as yourself).
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Post by finarvyn on Mar 30, 2009 16:34:07 GMT -5
That certainly makes sense. Mostly me just thinking out loud... :-)
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Post by greyharp on Jul 5, 2009 6:40:59 GMT -5
I have a confession to make Jason, I got cranky with you, threw S&S on the shelf in a huff and didn't look at it again until recently. The reason I got cranky is the subject of this thread. Of course having a good sulk does no-one any good and I'm a firm believer in giving feedback, both positive and negative. Positive feedback is easy, I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't think S&S was a great game. Negative feedback is always tricky and hard to get right without putting people's backs up, but I figure I'll have a go anyway. I was one of the first customers to buy a copy of S&S when it was released, in fact I purchased it from Lulu on "2008-08-11" at "22:19:00". When around six months later the Revised version was announced, and knowing that the changes were big enough to change the way the game would be played, it was my hope that my now-defunct version of the game would be replaced with an updated pdf copy of the Revised version. This would be a matter of simple courtesy, good customer service and business sense, since it would make customers happy and encourage loyalty. Sadly this didn't happen. Fin asked the question in this thread and the answer was "no". Paying customers of the original version must re-purchase the game if they want the Revised version of the game. And yet, finding out who did and didn't buy a copy of the game from Lulu isn't all that hard. The customer just needs to log into Lulu, go to the Order History page, find the date and click on the order number and it brings up the details. A screen print can then be taken and emailed to prove purchase. The page shows not only the name of the customer, but the name of the product and seller, when it was purchased, how much was paid, etc. Instead S&S went down the errata road: I plan to upload to Lulu a (free) errata pdf when all the errata has been collected. This will enable people who have previously purchased the game to get the fixes without having to re-purchase it. I will then revise the existing file so that anyone who buys it after the errata is collected will get the most current version. As Matt over at Flames Rising said, "That's one of the selling points of PoD publishing, the ability to make instant fixes." This is a neat solution, though not satisfactory for the customer with the pre-Revised copy. Looking at one of the errata threads however, I'm wondering why this second lot of corrections hasn't made it into the Official Errata document on Lulu, making that an out of date document too. People owning copies of the original two printings, who aren't members of this forum, don't have access to all the errata corrections. Surely it would be a simple matter of updating the Official Errata file on Lulu? So I anyway, I gave up sulking and recently decided to bite the bullet and buy an up-to-date copy of the game. I figured the Deluxe version was the way to go, but then I saw this thread here that decided me against it. In this thread there are two unhappy customers upset that it wasn't immediately obvious the advertised combined S&S/MM Deluxe version actually didn't include everything from the MM sourcebook. Yes the fact is pointed out on the Elf Lair Games blog (as mentioned in the above thread), but that assumes that every customer has read that blog entry, frankly a big assumption. So now I am left with the choice of either paying $6.25 for a pdf copy of S&S Deluxe, but with the unsatisfactory feeling that I'm missing sections of the game (now I know Jason that your opinion on the subject is: The things that weren't included aren't remotely required for play. They are all expressly optional additions, and we didn't feel the need to overcomplicate the game with a bunch of optional additions. The things that ARE incorporated are those things we felt should've been in the core book from day one. ...but I can't help feel like I'm missing out on something, it's the completist collector in me) or I can pay $11 and purchase S&S Revised and a copy of MM, costing me more than twice what I paid for the original game, and almost twice the cost of the Deluxe version. Now you might think I'm a dick for quibbling over a small amount of money, but it's not about the money, it's about customer satisfaction, service and feedback. More important than any of the issues I've whined about here is the issue of customer service, going the extra mile to do the right thing by your paying customers, in order to win their loyalty and future patronage. Jason, I truly hope you take this post in the spirit it is intended. I hope my concerns are perceived not as puerile whinging, but as constructive criticism. Anyone in business should strive to achieve great customer service. Feedback from the customers, negative as well as positive, is a great tool to assess where the business is at in this regard. S&S is a great game and I look foward to supporting it and other offerings from Elf Lair Games in the future, and because I feel that way, I feel that it's important too that I be open and honest with my ELG experience (even if it has taken me a year to open my mouth).  Regards Dave Macauley |
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Post by Jason Vey on Jul 6, 2009 7:57:36 GMT -5
It's actually only one customer upset in that thread--the other one referenced was a guy who was angry about a couple typos in the PDF.
I understand where you're coming from, but in regards to the free/discounted update downloads, Lulu does not give me access to the identities of people who purchased the game, which means I have nothing other than your word that you've got it. Nor do they give me the ability to offer discount coupons like some of the other e-book dealers. It's true that customers could e-mail me a print screen of their purchase order as proof of purchase, but gods, that opens up a logistical nightmare; there is also the fact that since I don't have a way to give out free download codes, the truth is that even with the identities of people who have purchased S&S in place I couldn't e-mail copies of S&S Deluxe because it's over 12 MB in size (even after I ran it through file compression in Acrobat) which is over the attachment size cap for AOL, Verizon, Comcast, Yahoo, Gmail, AND Hotmail (all of which have a hard limit of 10-11 MB).
Let's be honest: every single one of us knows that Lulu is far from the best service out there--in many ways, it's crap. Their shipping sucks, their customer service is mediocre at best, their production costs are outrageous, their turnaround time S-L-O-W, and their options for storefront customization basic at best. I am not fond of Lulu. But they are, unfortunately, the ONLY game in town that does what they do, and offers the control that they offer over your project. So for the time being, we're stuck with them.
Given that I don't actually have access to the identities and contact info of customers who buy S&S through Lulu, while some of you out there I know for a fact bought it, others I don't, and if I start giving out free copies to a few people I have to give them to everyone, which quickly makes actually trying to sell the game moot. I did this once, due to my first loud detractor, and suddenly people came out of the woodwork saying, "What about me? Why don't I get one, too?"
Eventually, when DriveThruRPG/RPGNow get their PoD service up and running I'll be looking to move there, as that will give me the ability to offer discount coupons, updated downloads, etc., to customers. As long as I'm at Lulu, however, my hands are tied. Now, I could split my store and offer e-books through DriveThru and print through Lulu for the time being, but I expect people would then complain about having to go to two different places to get their e-books and print books in that case.
In addition, why is it that it's okay for companies like Eden, Palladium, etc., to put out errata documents, but not us? Why is it that Troll Lord Games and Catalyst Game Labs can incorporate errata and rules changes in every new printing, but nobody complains that they should get a free copy of the book, and yet when we do it people want us to give away the new version, even though the pre-existing one is perfectly functional? Maybe I'm misreading but it feels like a double-standard that's in place because we're a bit closer to the fan base than some of the more traditional publishers are.
I also can't help but feeling if I were a larger, more traditional publisher people wouldn't be raging about me releasing a new edition of the game that doesn't have everything they wanted in it. S&S is a light game. It's designed to be a light game. The rules we incorporated into Deluxe don't change that or add additional layers of complexity. The rules that are still in Monstrous Mayhem are rules that are OPTIONAL and NOT NECESSARY TO PLAY THE GAME.
Seriously; I meant it when I said that it's NOT a required update. There's nothing NEW in it. I wasn't kidding about that. I'm sorry that a few folks feel like I should've given them the full package of S&S and MM in one big book, but from my end that really feels like people demanding something for nothing, for no reason other than they want more for less. There seems to be a belief that if I smashed the two books entirely together, it just wouldn't cost as much. That may be true and it may not--I'd have to see what Lulu's production cost would be for a book that long. I could get into the licensing issues regarding some artwork I commissioned for MM that I'm not permitted to use in any product that is not an edition of Monstrous Mayhem, but suffice it to say, I'd lose some art if I did that. Some folks may not care about that, but it's a wasted investment if I axe that artwork.
I don't want to drive customers away or be seen as though I don't appreciate your business because I do, really. You ladies and gents are what keep Elf Lair alive and progressing towards bigger and better things. Seriously, if I'd known it was going to cause this much of a storm I never would've bothered with the deluxe edition--I'd have just left it, warts and all, the way it was. We're really trying hard to take the next step with Elf Lair, and the more we have to focus on what now in retrospect seems a mistake in releasing S&S Deluxe, the longer it's going to take to finish upcoming projects like Vampire Queen, Eldritch Witchery, Apotheosis, Eiru, and Twelve Parsecs.
Finally, there have been a few grievances that we shouldn't expect people to look here on the blog for news and updates. Given that we've posted that the blog is the official place to keep up with ELG news and updates, I don't think it's that big an assumption to trust that our customers check here for what's going on with us.
NOW, with all that being said, I will look into doing whatever I can to fix these issues, and will post here when I've come to a decision about how to put peoples' fears and doubts to rest.
Thanks for your continuing business--I hope that this response didn't seem too ranty, self-pitying, or unappreciative. I think we're going through a few growing pains at the moment, and I guess that's a good thing: even the complaints mean people care and are taking notice of Elf Lair as a company, and we have seen that and appreciate it. Hopefully you'll continue to be pleased with our product overall.
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Post by greyharp on Jul 6, 2009 9:15:11 GMT -5
Firstly, thank you Jason for the lengthy reply. The fact that you took the time to write such a long reply truly goes a long way mollifying any grievance, but then straightfoward communication is often the best resolution, rather than some token gesture. I acknowledge the frustrations and difficulties of working with Lulu, but still felt it important to discuss the subject from a customer's perspective. Yes the difficulties of providing a free update download for customers who bought the initial game would've been a logistical nightmare, although perhaps not impossible, however again, clearly communicating these difficulties would satisfy most people, as you have done in the above post. On the issue of errata, I certainly didn't suggest customers should receive a complete new product just because there is official errata, but rather pointed out that the corrections listed in the thread New Errata for Second Printing were posted early January and yet the Official Errata document on Lulu doesn't seem to have been updated half a year later. Surely this would be an easy fix, however since we're talking Lulu here, sadly I wouldn't be surprised if you were to tell me otherwise. I don't agree that customers are not complaining about constant streams of errata coming out of larger, more professional or at least, established, gaming companies, nor that they are expecting more from ELG. Customers should be complaining to these companies, providing the feedback necessary to encourage said companies to take the time and effort to put out a quality product first time. And if people are not complaining, well then that sadly suggests we as a community are readily accepting and even fostering an atmosphere where shoddy work is acceptable, and then we only have ourselves as customers to blame. Anyway Jason, I don't think this is an area you and ELG has to worry about, it's not like you are putting out new errata every week. Now if we can just get that Official document on Lulu updated.  I got your point about the optional material in MM and the Deluxe game being exactly that - optional - and had acknowledged that in my previous post. My point in that post was not to say there was any problem in the "missing" material, but again just suggesting that clear communication soothes the raging soul and generally fixes the problem. Perhaps an additional sentence inserted into the product description of the Deluxe version would prevent misunderstanding and any resulting resentment? I have seen nothing to indicate there is any storm over the Deluxe edition and if there are some grumblings, as I said, changing the product description would probably put them to rest in most cases. NOW, with all that being said, I will look into doing whatever I can to fix these issues, and will post here when I've come to a decision about how to put peoples' fears and doubts to rest. As I said in my initial post, I was very tentative about posting "negative" feedback, as many people naturally tend to get defensive when criticised, no matter what the motivation. But your statement above made me feel it was all worth while. As I said a few times in this post, most customer issues can be resolved simply through clear communication. And of course clear communication will generally nip in the bud any future problems. Thanks again for the reply Jason, I am very grateful. |
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Post by Jason Vey on Jul 6, 2009 9:40:56 GMT -5
Well, I'm glad I was able to address your concerns, David. And just so you know, not everything I posted was directed at you specifically, but at all of the concerns we've received (a few of which were via e-mail and not on the message boards). You didn't ask for free product for errata correction (for example), but a few others have.
Anyway, Tim and I are working on something that I think will make people pretty happy overall. Don't want to say anything more till it's ready, but it's something that's long overdue.
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Post by wulfgar22 on Jul 6, 2009 15:54:23 GMT -5
Ah! I just read this thread after posting a repy to your most recent blog entry..about this very thing. I'll post it here too as it's relevant:
"First of all, I'd like to say I'm a fan and supporter. I love what you've done...but in the interests of customer feedback I must say that the pace at which you come out with new versions is...kind of frustrating.
My experience so far as a customer has been...
....I bought the very first original full-size hardback on the day you made it available on Lulu. But then, a day or two later, you updated it with some errata that you had missed.
Then you came out with the new digest-sized revised hardback a few months later along with Monstrous Mayhem. Wow...great! Really like the new size...and revised as well so that means improved. Great. Shame I blew £20 quid on that old version but hey! So I was first in line...buying both the new revised core book and MM on the day you released them. But then, a few days later, you updated Monstrous Mayhem with some errata (the page number references were wrong). Hmm.
But now, a few months later, a new version has come out combining bits of MM with the core book and with a nice new cover. Wow. Wish I'd known...much better having it all combined in one...and the cover is cool.
Okay. So lesson learnt. Wait a few days to make sure everything is error free...maybe a bit longer so I can get the final final version. But I can't help but feel that my eagerness as a fan has been rewarded with slightly inferior copies.
Oh well...it's not that big a deal, I guess. I mean...like many others...I'm a bit of a collector (or completist). I also went out and got the 3 little softbacks version you did...and the box set. But...it's the pace at which you have updated and changed things. I know from your point of view you want to tinker and improve...to make sure that you have the best version out there. But as a customer I like to feel like I've got the most up-to-date version...and when the versions are updated so quickly you can't help but feel that you have somehow ended up with a slightly inferior copy.
I don't mean to be too critical...as I said I'm a fan and supporter...but I can certainly understand if some people feel a little frustrated."
As I said above...I think it is the pace with which you are amending and revising. It makes those who have bought versions prior to the amendments feel they have inferior copies despite having paid the same money. I also think this would be the case even were it WotC or White Wolf...imagine if the PHB were updated with a new cover and some rule changes only six months after its release and then again six months later with another new cover and incorporating some of the DMG and MM. Even those rabid 4e fanboys would get frustrated...
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Post by greyharp on Jul 6, 2009 17:37:04 GMT -5
I think it is the pace with which you are amending and revising. It makes those who have bought versions prior to the amendments feel they have inferior copies despite having paid the same money. I also think this would be the case even were it WotC or White Wolf I once gave this as the reason for my frustration with Chris Gonnerman's BFRPG, which is currently up to release 75 I believe, here is what he had to say in reply: While I understand where he is coming from and makes perfect sense in the software programming world, I don't think that way of operating is compatible with pen & paper, physical printed product, where the customer wants a finished, polished, definitive product. The customer with the "finished" product won't mind the official errata document, would love to buy the additional rules supplements, etc., just as long as he knows his initial investment got him what he paid for. And if a couple of years down the track a 2nd edition is released, he'll happily buy that too, even if just out of loyalty or curiosity. With PoD publishing, we have entered a time when small amateur publishers are making inroads into the rpg market. Personally, I believe the amateurs have the ability to show up the big boys with not only greater standards and superior products, but also greater customer service and reciprocating loyalty. And we all know how much loyalty we've felt we've received from the biggest company of them all over the years. I truly believe amateur publishers can and will punch well above their weight and I am excited to see this happening. It puts our hobby back into the hands of people who care, not in the hands of the product for profit motivated corporations and that, I believe, will be telling over the next few years. |
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Post by Jason Vey on Jul 7, 2009 6:35:23 GMT -5
But here's the thing....since Revised (red cover) came out, the game HAS been a polished, finished product, just with errata posted (like every game company does). That's why we keep insisting that you don't need to buy a new version of the game if you already have it. This is what's frustrating me. I keep telling everyone you don't need to buy the new version, and yet people keep complaining that I'm requiring them to buy a new version.
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kersus
Junior Member
Toying With Destruction
Posts: 67 
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Post by kersus on Jul 7, 2009 6:44:43 GMT -5
I just want you to drive up here and pencil in all of the errata for me. That's service.... as well as the end of my comedy career. |
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Post by Jason Vey on Jul 7, 2009 7:13:20 GMT -5
Also, to be clear: aside from fixing any typos (not errata, but typos), the Deluxe Edition will be the final version of S&S you see for quite some time--until we're ready for a true second edition a few years down the line. We're turning our attention and focus entirely towards creating new material, now, as we believe that S&S is at a point where it stands on its own and holds its own against anything else on the market.
I know we've done a lot of experimenting with formats and such, and I apologize for any inconvenience that may have caused our fans...but honestly, since the advent of the black cover 8.5 x 11 version, the content has changed very little; the only major change that was made was to remove d10's from the game...and the instructions for doing so in older versions are included in Monstrous Mayhem.
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Post by wulfgar22 on Jul 7, 2009 7:38:56 GMT -5
But here's the thing....since Revised and Expanded came out, the game HAS been a polished, finished product, just with errata posted (like every game company does). That's why we keep insisting that you don't need to buy a new version of the game if you already have it. This is what's frustrating me. I keep telling everyone you don't need to buy the new version, and yet people keep complaining that I'm requiring them to buy a new version. Personally, I wasn't complaining that you 'required' me to buy the new version...in fact, I'm trying to do my best not to be too critical....as I have said I'm a fan. But I am describing my customer experience...the frustration that I have felt over the tinkering, updating and revising of the various versions...whether it is from the original version to the revised version to the combining of the revised version with parts of MM. These are all significant changes in the end product whether the rules have changed or not. The fact is that I want a finished product...or I would like the choice of which finished product I want if there are various versions....which is why I suspect your complaints probably centre around the main books...original to revised to deluxe...rather than the three-book digest-sized version (which is quite clearly just a choice of look/layout....not much different to Labyrinth Lords two cover versions). Choice is good. The thing is...I actually like the changes you've made but it's this that actually makes me wish I hadn't bothered with the older versions because the newer version looks better/is combined with MM/has less errata. But I never had the choice! You say that other games companies update their books regularly... but I must say although I'm quite a big spender on RPGs I don't know any other games company that has changed/updated versions and layout so often in the first year for their core book (or supplements, for that matter)...from POD publishers like Goblinoid Games and Mythmere Games to the big boys. I take your point that you have only revised the rules once...but you have revised the book(s) (and quite significantly with the deluxe version) and this means that those who bought the previous books might regret having done so (or at least not having the choice) if they prefer the newer version. If we were talking a couple of years between versions then no-one would have a leg to stand on but we are talking just a few months. But to say there isn't a stink when a new version comes out...well, just take a look on RPGnet at the rumoured 3rd edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I guess the fact that you're getting complaints means you really are an RPG Publisher now!  Anyways...as the deluxe is the 'final' version then it's all water under the bridge now...anybody coming to S&S from this point on will just have choices of layout/design. |
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Post by Jason Vey on Jul 7, 2009 12:57:44 GMT -5
Oh, I also shouldn't fail to re-iterate: I am going to do a version of Monstrous Mayhem for "Deluxe" S&S that will just include the missing material (and should, hopefully, be cheaper than the original version--unless Lulu goes completely off their heads on me).
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Post by greyharp on Jul 7, 2009 16:16:26 GMT -5
I am going to do a version of Monstrous Mayhem for "Deluxe" S&S that will just include the missing material You've lost me here Jason, doesn't the current version of MM already contain the missing material? Or do you mean you are going to release an expanded Deluxe version that contains the missing material? |
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