S&S Second Edition

[Jason Vey]

Hi, everyone,

I'm cross-posting this from the Announcements forum. Please include discussion of the topic in this thread. Thanks.

Just wanted to put the word out that I am beginning work on the major revision of the S&S rules set. It's been out since August and I've gotten some great comments, feedback, and even editorial catches from people. I don't intend to be one of those companies that puts out a new edition every year, but let's face it: S&S is a work in progress, moving fast towards being complete. As we move towards building an identity of our own, you guys have already given us the necessary feedback to strengthen its legs.

In addition, Tim and I have designs on trying to get S&S into game stores hopefully within the year, and when that happens we want the game to be as complete and flawless as possible.

To that end, some of the things that will (hopefully) be fixed:

1. ALL holdover references to d20 mechanics will have been caught and removed (I just had another one pointed out--the Sword of Life Stealing references a natural 20 where it should reference Box Cars).

2. Elements that exist only as holdovers from the inspiriation game, such as %-based thief skills, will be removed and replaced with the 2d6 core mechanic to work towards a more unified task resolution.

3. Awkward and unneccessary subsystems such as separate rules for saving throws and morale checks will be folded into the Ability Check rules.

4. Attack routines for multiple hit die monsters will be clarified and streamlined.

I should note that all of these alterations WILL be included in the first sourcebook, Monstrous Mayhem, so if you pick up the sourcebook there will NOT be a need for those who already have the game to re-buy the core book.

Now, I'm still debating whether to actually call this a "Second Edition," as that might be confusing when it hits store shelves. I'd like feedback from the community on that. I will probably make a subtle alteration to the cover design so people can tell it apart from the earlier printing--perhaps a different background color than black, for example.

It also might be a bit before it actually sees release. I want to be extremely thorough with this, so it's the last revision we see for a good while.

[finarvyn]

ALSO POSTED ON MY OD&D DISCUSSION BOARD:

Rather than "S&S Second Edition" you might call it "S&S Revised" or "S&S Evolved" or something that helps a customer realize that it has been updated but not with a total overhaul.

PDF readers are easy to please because you can give them an updated copy and it won't really cost anyone anything. It's the print readers who will be more annoyed. In my case I was planning on ordering the Old School Edition but with this new info I'll probably wait until the revision and buy them then.

[Jason Vey]

ALSO POSTED ON FINARVYN'S OD&D DISCUSSION BOARD:

Again, it could be awhile before the new version is ready to go, so if you don't mind the wait, that's great! And also, like I said, Monstrous Mayhem will contain all of the updates for those who already have the game. Those who are playing the game as-is, are happy with the core book, and don't plan to buy MM probably won't need the revisions anyway.

[drsamsara]

I may have found another. Only now that I am running some combat do I realize that Studded Leather and Chainmail are identical except that one costs more than the other. Both provide the same AC and both have the same movement rate. I haven't analysed the Weapon vs. AC Table yet, but I think that the AC 5 column is probbaly more appropriate to Chain than Leather.

Not quite sure what the fix is. One would be to eliminate Studded Leather (that is, just fold it into the more generic "leather"). Other options (like saying that Leather fails against enemy box-cars or something) would be more complex.

[Jason Vey]

Well, one of the fixes is going to be that I'm going to thoroughly tweak the weapon vs. AC tables. It's tough to get perfect simulation out of a bare-bones system, but I'm going to make what adjustments I can.

[drsamsara]

I'm looking forward to seeing that.

[Jason Vey]

Completed the revisions on book 1 this weekend. Will be diving into books 2 and 3 over the next couple weeks. Revisions at this point don't look like as major an undertaking as I'd thought--removing the %-based references from thief skills and spells wasn't hard to do at all.

[vitruvian]

I'm all for a look at rationalizing the Weapon vs. Armor table, but given the need to keep the number of distinct levels within bounds, I think studded leather (or brigandine, or coat-of-plates) stays at the same AC as mail or scale, given that the studs are actually all that's showing of dozens of little metal plates behind the leather. In fact, it could be argued that it should be more protective than mail and therefore AC 6, intermediate between mail and plate, but you probably want to reserve those 'inbetween' levels for +shield.

[finarvyn]

Mar 16, 2009 9:29:55 GMT -5 Jason Vey said:

Revisions at this point don't look like as major an undertaking as I'd thought...

Do we have a timeline for this project? I know that you were talking about a boxed set with 2E booklets inside and I was just wondering how quickly you thought this would happen.

Not that I'm too impatient, but.... ;D

[Jason Vey]

The revised edition is available at Lulu as of last night in hardcover, softcover, e-book, and Old School Edition pamphlets.

I've gone to a 6x9 format for all books, in the interest of giving us a somewhat unique trade dress, as well as reformatting with a different font and layout. This will (hopefully) be the last revision of the game for Lulu purposes, save to fix typos and errors people find.

I honestly didn't make much change in the weapon tables...a few basic tweaks here and there, using the original Chainmail rules as a baseline, but the adjustments are minor. I added thrown spears per drsamsara's discovery that they were missing, and I tweaked the ranges for thrown weapons, and the target numbers for ranged weapons.

What did change was the AC table. I made base studded leather the same as leather + shield, and added Lorica Segmentata to the list, giving it the same AC as chain and scale. Now studded + shield shares the same AC as chain, scale, and Lorica.

Also changed: the spellcasting table. I noticed some discrepancies with the numbers on the table--the difficulties seemed off in minor but niggling ways. So I've adjusted the pattern to be more linear. On the up side, it may (though I haven't tried it) be possible now for someone to memorize the table so it need not be referenced every time a spell is cast.

On the down side, it's gotten just a shade harder to cast spells at base level.

[Jason Vey]

Okay, I've fixed the layout and page references. It's ready to go.