S&S Public Domain Art

[islestrike]

I've read two posts now on the S&S blog to the effect that the current version of S&S is not fit for distribution. It is partially a layout thing, and mostly a public domain images thing if I read things correctly. Here is a view from someone who purchased S&S in its current form.

When I first came across S&S about 6-8 weeks ago, I was excited about the game & rules, but less than thrilled to learn that it used public domain images. There is nothing wrong with free images and clip art per say, but in most small press publications where I've seen their use, the products tend to come out looking cheesy and amateurish. I think that stems from the way such illustrations tend to be used and not that the images themselves are bad. In looking at them it usually seems they don't quite fit the context of their use, like they were hastily chosen and the author didn't have a wide selection to choose from and just did the best with what they had.

So long story short I purchased S&S old school in spite of the expected cheesy graphics, and I was pleasantly surprised! Page after page, the art looked good, really good. More to the point it fit well with what was being conveyed on the page. I found it very evocative, meaning I found myself looking at the images and wondering what was going on in those pictures. I then bought the pdfs and found out there was slightly more art including some brilliant Emil Doepler on the covers, so I ordered hard copies of those too! Plus I got in under the wire and snagged a white box with the nifty Thor fighting the Serpent illustration on the box. The art present in these books works very well, and based on that I can make a general statement ...Jason must have spent a heck of a longtime meticulously choosing each picture that went into S&S. Am I wrong?

But here's what I really want to get at in terms of what works and what doesn't. What is going on in the following picture? Who is that? Where is that? Is it a Frost Giant?

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/The_giant_with_the_flaming_sword_by_Dollman.jpg

I know after the fact that the illustration is actually from Norse Mythology ...it is Surt with Flaming Sword, mentioned in the Sybyl's Prophecy. It is not even a Frost Giant, but if you don't know then your imagination takes hold and you begin to think up all kinds of things.

Now I am not trying to pick on anyone or anything in particular, so a quick google search yielded this picture of a Frost Giant. Again what is going on in this picture? Who is that and why is he there?

www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fb_gallery/83557.jpg

In this case the answer for me is I don't really care and I am already onto the next page. My brain is totally numb to this illustration and the reason I don't care is it is very typical of commissioned illustrations found on store shelves today. It is not a bad picture, but whatever is going on there and whoever that is suppose to be, it is probably the same thing going on in the next page and in the previous page and in the next book coming up. I've seen too many of these posed contrived images, technically perfect though they may be, that it is all looking the same and I've stopped caring what they are about.

Now of the two pieces, if given a choice to own one, which would you choose? Of the two, if the artist was available which would you choose to hire as an illustrator? I suppose there are people who will say they would rather have the 2nd piece, But John Charles Dollman is no artistic slouch either, and hands down I would choose the first piece. And S&S is filled with these types of great well chosen images.

I'm not sure then I buy the argument that S&S is not ready for distribution because of the way it looks. I certainly agree that is doesn't look like other RPG products in distribution, and it probably doesn't conform to many people's expectations for what they want an RPG to look like. Is that a bad thing though? Will changing it so it does conform to those expectations guarantee its success in distribution, however success is defined? It seems to me not more than a few weeks ago there was excitement and optimism about getting S&S into distribution. So what happened? Some naysayer said it is not up to current standards of other RPGs ...gee I would take that as a compliment. Isn't that also a requisite for success, having your own uniqueness to differentiate yourself from others. Now I said naysayer but I didn't mean it so negatively. There is something to be said for listening to honest advice and counsel based on experience, and I'm sure the people giving this advice know what they are talking about to a certain extent. But there is equally a case for going against that advice and sticking to one's guns and having confidence in what one has put together on their own merits. Here is what Ken St. Andre had to say in a chat sessions about perceived player criticism to some of the changes he made in T&T 7.0. Seems to fit perfectly here.

Q: I was wondering whether you knew that would be such a sticking point for so many people playing. I understand how to use it, but a lot of others seem to be having trouble. (They are talking about Kremm resistance here)

KSA: Had no idea. I'm not the kinda guy who tries to figure out what people want and then give it to them. I throw my ideas out there. If people like them fine. If they don't. it's a big world. they can find something else to do.

That's why I really like Tunnels & Trolls. I like Spellcraft & Swordplay for the same reasons. Should S&S continue to change and evolve stylistically and in format? Absolutely. Should it discard the Public Domain imagery in favour of some commissioned art? Well that depends if that is truly part of the author's vision for the game, or if it is being done to make it more appealing on the shelves. S&S has a unique style and look about it now. Maybe that happened out of necessity originally, but I still take it to be part of the author's doing and he did a good job.

Cheers!

[Jason Vey]

I think a bigger issue is the quality of the images, not the artwork itself. When dealing with public domain imagery, one doesn't get nice 300dpi images, and they tend to come out dark, grainy, blurry, or pixellated when printed. Also, the book could really use some sprucing up layout-wise. I think Monstrous Mayhem looks head and shoulders above the S&S core book--I learned from the experience and continue to do so.

Future books are going to be laid out using a professional quality layout program and should look even better.

S&S isn't out of the game, yet. We're just taking our time. It's going to stay PoD and I will likely do a print run of the pocket editions for direct sales. This *will* ensure that S&S will appear on shelves in some gaming stores. It also means that we can take our time and do this right. No reason to rush ahead before we're ready.

I am still excited about the future prospects for Elf Lair. We're not even down, let alone out. The first distribution offer we had just wasn't good--it was a "one-shot publication deal," as the potential distributor put it. He told me up front he likely wasn't interested in sourcebooks or future projects, just the S&S core (and there he really wanted the 3 booklets, not a single volume, though I pushed for the latter). He also wanted to--I felt--irrevocably tie us solely to the Old School movement. While I'm proud to be part of that movement, I like to think we can also, at the same time, have a broader appeal. I didn't want to limit us in that way. In the RPG industry, you never tie yourself to any movement, because trends in the industry rise and fall, and when the old school movement fades (and it will eventually fade--probably not permanently, but at least for awhile) I'd like us to still be around.

The advice I got from a contact in the industry (who is a big name that shall for this purpose remain nameless) was specifically that another distributor/fulfillment house I was exploring had many books that were full color and looked a lot slicker, and probably wouldn't be interested. Now, the problem we face is not "could it do well in game stores?" The problem we face is "will distributors think this is worth selling to game stores?" and that's a whole different animal. In this economy with the industry as it is, distributors don't take risks anymore.

We'll get there, though. Hang in there with us, and we'll get there. I still want to see Elf Lair in some form on store shelves within the year, and would very much like to have a booth at Origins and/or Gen Con next year.

[islestrike]

Jun 10, 2009 7:20:35 GMT -5 Jason Vey said:

... S&S isn't out of the game, yet. We're just taking our time. It's going to stay PoD and I will likely do a print run of the pocket editions for direct sales. This *will* ensure that S&S will appear on shelves in some gaming stores. ...

Nor did I intend to suggest S&S is down and "out of the game" by not getting into distribution now or that it is otherwise some large setback. I have the books already so to me it doesn't matter. If it achieves a broader appeal and longevity by going into distribution then that will be a good thing too I suppose.

If I was to sum up my post in one sentence it would be that I am already sick and tired of the slick full color books in distribution and on store shelves, so the fact that S&S "looks" different from what is usually expected should be viewed as a positive. Or in other words maybe the current format (with some tweaking and cleaning) can actually serve to bring about your goals of higher success rather than trying to hand the distributor another slick full color book, of which they already have many. That's all I'm saying.

Cheers!

[Jason Vey]

A valid point, to a point...but distributors want slick full color books. Or at least slick books, if not full color. So therein lies the dilemma.